[e-drug] Thiazides and high blood pressure

E-DRUG: Thiazides and high blood pressure
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Dear all,

It is a curious phenomenon that this debate has been raging for the
last fifty years and that nobody knows the real answer: "salt or no
salt", basically the Platt vs Pickering controversy. But - from the
point of view of E-Drug - does it really matter? And should we mix
scientific and commercial/political arguments at this level? What is
important is that these drugs work, and that they are cheap and
widely available.

Of course there are some racial and generic differences, and we should take these into account. What we have to know is what the lowest effective dose is, and there are some excellent studies showing that these drugs have a very flat dose-response curve (as to the diuretic effect - the hypotensive effect lasts much longer because is linked to homeostatic mechanisms) and that therefore higher doses which we have used in the past and have caused problems (diabetes, hypopotassaemia) are no longer appropriate.

I don't believe that manufacturers of thiazides are really interested in putting political or commercial pressure on manufacturers of newer classes of drugs - there are too many of them,
all of them are in the generic business and the profit margin is minimal. So we all agree that these drugs are cheap and effective, and that the differences between them are decided by dose and price.

NICE advice is aimed at the British government and British prescibers solely and should not be applicable to developing countries with restricted resources. The whole discussion is not
worth the salt (what's in a name....).

Regards,

Leo Offerhaus, the Netherlands.
Leo Offerhaus <offerhausl@euronet.nl>

E-DRUG: Clinical trials vs pharmacology - thiazides, cox-2s, HRT, HPV vaccine
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Dear E-druggers,

In this message I will respond to 3 different threads: Thiazides and high blood pressure, FDA Testimony opposing COX-2 inhibitor Arcoxia, HPV vaccine and I will also mention HRT.

I thank Alberto Donzelli and Maria Font for supporting my position based on clinical trial evidence in favour of chlorthalidone rather than Leo Offerhaus' pharmacological arguments for hydrochlorothiaziade.

Leo suggests that this debate is not important.

I think it is important for 3 reasons:
1. We do not know if there is a clinically important difference in the efficacy or adverse effects at the optimal (low) dose between chlorthalidone and hydrochlorothiaziade. If there is then that will be important for the very large number of people who have hypertension and should be taking one of these 2 drugs.

2. Our uncertainty about what is the best drug for hypertension is another example showing that the current dominance of research by patent monopoly based funding is distorting priorities away from providing the information that clinicians and patients need most. We need to change the system.
See:
Mansfield P. Industry-Sponsored Research: A More Comprehensive Alternative. PLoS Med 2006;3(10): e463
http://medicine.plosjournals.org/perlserv/?request=get-document&doi=10.1371/journal.pmed.0030463
The Quality Adjusted Life Years (QALYs) gained per cost ratio from implementation of the results of a large chlorthalidone versus hydrochlorothiaziade trial may be much better than many other common treatments.

3. I think my debate with Leo is a subset of a wider debate about the place of pharmacology vs clinical trials in prescribing decision making. Leo's argument was based on pharmacology, my argument was base on clinical trials. Alberto and Maria integrated both.

I think that if pharmacology and clinical trial results conflict then the pharmacology is probably wrong or more likely incomplete. However I would like to balance that by giving some examples of how pharmacology (speculation about mechanisms) can still have an important role especially for hypothesis generation.

a. Hypotheses about pharmacological mechanisms are very important for new drug development.

b. Knowing which other drugs a drug is similar to can alert us to the possibility of similar effects.
For example, Sid Wolfe's FDA Testimony opposing COX-2 inhibitor Arcoxia noted evidence that diclofenac causes a high rate of cardiovascular events compared to other old NSAIDs. This evidence is less surprising and takes on a different meaning when people know that diclofenac is almost as COX-2 selective as celecoxib.

See:
Selective COX-2 inhibitors: Are they safer NSAIDs? Therapeutics Letter 39, January - February 2001
www.ti.ubc.ca/node/61

Consequently, if diclofenac is included in the comparators for any new COX-2 selective drug the cardiovascular harm caused by the new drug will be obscured.

Our understanding that diclofenac is a COX-2 selective drug is part of why we recommend that all COX-2-selective drugs (including diclofenac) should be removed from the market until they have been properly evaluated.
See:
Mansfield PR, Vitry AI, Wright JM. Withdraw all COX-2-selective drugs. Med J Aust 2005; 182 (4):197.
www.mja.com.au/public/issues/182_04_210205/matters_arising_210205_fm-1.html

c. Thinking about mechanisms can also help us when trying to extrapolate from clinical trials with short durations (rarely more than 5 years) to predict treatment effects over a lifetime.

For example HRT has a benefit / harm profile similar to cigarettes. HRT causes or more likely accelerates breast cancer.
We know that cancers take years to grow before they are detected. Consequently we can predict that he harm caused by taking HRT for 5 years then ceasing includes not just the breast cancers diagnosed during those 5 years but also breast cancers that are diagnosed many years later.

Another example is speculation many possible mechanisms that could reduce the effectiveness of the HPV vaccine for reducing cervical cancer death rates:
i. The targeted strains could become resistant (a la influenza)
ii. Other strains could become more prevalent once the competition from the targeted strains has been removed. This could include strains that are currently unknown and more dangerous.
iii. Women may have less cytology screening tests out of a false sense of security.
iv. The inverse care law. Those women who are most at risk of dying of cervical cancer are least likely to receive the vaccine.

regards,

Peter

Dr Peter Mansfield
GP
Director, Healthy Skepticism Inc
Countering misleading drug promotion.
www.healthyskepticism.org
Research Fellow, Discipline of General Practice, University of Adelaide
peter.mansfield@adelaide.edu.au
See publication list at:
www.adelaide.edu.au/directory/peter.mansfield

E-DRUG: Thiazides and high blood pressure (cont'd)
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I agree with Leo. If a thiazide is working for us in
the developing country and is cheap with minimal side
effects please allow it for use. Many people are dying
or developing stroke from hypertension because they
cant afford the new expensive anti hypertensives.

Dr Mrs B.A.Aina
Dept. of Clinical Pharmacy,
Univ. of Lagos,
Lagos, NIGERIA
bolajoko aina <bolajokoaina@yahoo.com>

E-DRUG: Thiazides and high blood pressure (3)
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Dear Dr Mrs B.A.Aina,

I agree that price is very important.

I am not aware of any good evidence to support using the expensive new antihypertensive drugs except the HOT trial which showed benefit for diabetics from aiming for a lower blood pressure target by adding an ACE inhibitor. However there was a trend for harm for non-diabetics. Consequently it is not clear that we should use the more expensive drugs even for people who can afford them.

The drug that I recommend, clorthalidone is an old off patent drug so it should be about the same price as hydrochlorothiazide. In fact, in my country (Australia) clorthalidone is about half the price of hydrochlorothiazide.

I don't know how the prices compare in Nigeria but I know clorthalidone has been available in Nigeria because it was used in the following studies.

Salako LA, Falase AO, Aderounmu AF, Walker O. Assessment of a fixed-dosage combination of atenolol and chlorthalidone (Tenoretic) in hypertensive Nigerians.
Afr J Med Med Sci. 1990 Mar;19(1):57-61.
(NB one of the control groups took chlorthalidone alone.)

Mabadeje AF. The use of low dose of chlorthalidone in hypertensive Nigerians.
Niger Med J. 1979 Jul-Aug;9(7-8):755-8.

regards,

Peter

Dr Peter Mansfield
GP
Director, Healthy Skepticism Inc
Countering misleading drug promotion.
www.healthyskepticism.org
Receive free Healthy Skepticism Updates about once a month: www.healthyskepticism.org/lists/?p=subscribe

Research Fellow, Discipline of General Practice, University of Adelaide
peter.mansfield@adelaide.edu.au
See publication list at:
www.adelaide.edu.au/directory/peter.mansfield